Welcome to Leading Organizations That Matter, A podcast about leadership and how we find meaning, purpose, and impact in our work. I'm your host, Ray Spadoni, and today's topic is, is faith in fashion? An interview with pray dot com's cofounder, Matthew Potter. This is perhaps something a bit different for this podcast, a discussion about faith. Though, what is not so different is that I have covered topics associated with the importance of being integrated whole and true. Leadership, meaning, purpose, and impact are what we do talk about here. And oftentimes, that gets into issues of deeply held personal values. I haven't at this point directly considered the topic of faith, but frankly, that feels like a bit of a hollow distinction and unnecessary compartmentalization. So today, we pierce the wall and get into it with 1 of the founders of pray dot com, which is a major player in the growing faith based realm of apps, media, and it seems cultural acceptability. Matthew's story is fascinating, so I'll let him tell it. But just know that after having been a successful and wildly prolific app developer, he had a chance encounter with a friend, and that changed the course of his life. Let's get into it.
Welcome to the podcast, Matthew. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me, Ray. It's an honor and a blessing to be here. Awesome. Well, in the prerecorded intro for this episode, as I tend to do on all these episodes, I, I I talk a little bit about the the person I'm about to interview. But in this 1, I describe to listeners that faith related topics are not typically the ones I cover here on this podcast. And so today marks a bit of a departure point. So I'm delighted that you're here to help ease us through the transition, and I think that your personal story and what you've done at prey dot com make you just the right person to do so. So thank you. Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to, broach the topic. And, also, you know, we can talk about prayer and science, which are 2 things that, you know, people would think are juxtaposed against each other, but, they actually go together. And, we can explain that as well. Fantastic. Fantastic.
So I did mention, in the in the prerecorded part that you are 1 of the cofounders of the app. And I didn't say much more about that, because I think you should do that. But first, I think it would be very helpful just to set the context. If you could tell tell people about prey dot com, you know, what it is, a little bit about the history, what you're aiming to do with the platform, maybe a little bit about its reach and its impact?
Yeah. So not a problem at all. Pray dot com is the number 1 app for daily prayer and faith based content. We started back in 2016, October of 2016, and now we're here in 20 25. Pray dot com is the largest growing Christian, audience in the nation, so in the United States. And we have over 19000000 downloads of the pray dot com app, a hundred and 68000000 shares of content outside the app on other platforms like iMessage or email. And then we've just crossed 3000000000 listening minutes of content, which I'm told is over 1700 years of content consumption. Pretty crazy. And then, we launched some podcasts, last year. So in the last 18 months, we've had about 200000000 downloads of gray dot com's podcasts.
Congratulations. That's quite impressive. Thank you very much. Yeah. It's, it's exciting to to see what God's done assembling, you know, an Avengers team of people from companies, some of the greatest companies in Silicon Valley, to be able to build this platform, for, Christian people or people who are curious about the Bible, curious about their faith, or where they're going, when they die and all the big meaty topics. Right? So That's great.
You you know, I'm sure we'll come back to to pray dot com, to to the app. But let's talk a little bit about you. I'm I'm curious if you don't mind sharing your journey, especially as it comes to bringing you to this point, you know, the founding of Yeah. The app and, you know, what what was it that brought you to to that?
So for me, it all started with a 15 year old girl who was walking down the street. She was actually going to an abortion clinic. She was 15, and she was pregnant. She's about 8 months pregnant going to this, abortion clinic. And on her way there, she was feeling a little guilty, and she saw a church. And she stopped in at the church to ask the pastor for some advice on the biggest decision she was making in her life up to that point. And, the pastor was a new pastor, so he's a little nervous, thinking this is a life or death, you know, situation that he's in. So, he called a buddy of his in Los Angeles who planted a 20 person church, in LA and said, hey. What should I tell this 15 year old girl who's pregnant, who just walked in, my door? I've never met her before. I don't know her parents. You're way better at this than me. What do I tell her? And the pastor with the 20 person church in Los Angeles said, you know what? It is providential that you called me today. There's a a couple that just joined my church who's been trying to have children for 10 years, and they've been struggling and haven't been able to have children. Why don't you ask that girl if she'd be willing to give that baby up for adoption to this wonderful family that just joined my congregation? And, the girl said yes. And I was the baby the girl brought into the church, and I got adopted because of these 2 pastors that were friends.
So, yeah, pretty remarkable what, God did in my life. And then, my dad, became the head elder of this 20 person church, helping the pastor grow it to 1 of the largest churches in Los Angeles, today. It's a nondenominational, just bible preaching church. No frills, no thrills, just, you know, the word. And, yeah. So I grew up in church with my pastor being like a second dad to me and, went to high school, at a local high school here in Southern California. And strangely, I got the very unique opportunity to go up to Pixar, a new startup that was making animated movies. And while I was there, I got to, in a chance meeting, I got to meet Steve Jobs. And I didn't know this when I was there, but Steve Jobs is also adopted, and he super inspired me to get into technology. You know, being adopted, my my adopted family, everyone was great at sports. I was like a baby giraffe on the football field or the baseball field, and I was better with computers. So when Steve Jobs is telling you you should get into computers, I really looked into it, and it was super fun.
And so my senior year of college, which I don't recommend, Steve Jobs launched the App Store, and I dropped that at school. And I knew that's what I wanted to do. I just dove in with both feet. So I started a company called HomeStack. We build technology for real estate companies, specifically apps. And so I built HomeStack over a decade with my cofounder, Will, who's an incredible guy. Will is now the CEO of HomeStack. And so while at HomeStack, we built over 8000 apps in the App Store for some of the major real estate companies in the United States, including Coldwell Banker, Century 21, Sotheby's, many, many more, Pinnacle Estate Properties, and a few others. And so, it was super fun. We were doing great things. People were happy. We were helping people find their dream home.
But for some reason, you know, I had reached my goals, and I was coming to work every day just feeling empty inside, like I had lost my purpose. I reached this weird point in my life where I hit the goals that I wanted to to hit. We had done very well, and I just wanted to help him get back. So I called my pastor. I asked him how I could help him get back. And and, you know, he said, well, why don't you be a campus pastor? And I knew that wasn't right for me. You know, I'm an introverted tech entrepreneur who didn't go to seminary. And so I just said, you know, I'll pray about it.
And the next day, I ran into my good buddy, Steve Gutina, at a coffee shop. And Steve went to USC, played football, won a Rose Bowl under Pete Carroll, started a media company where he built out the YouTube channels for Red Bull, Marriott Hotels, Herbalife, several others. He sold that company and became the 29 year old CEO of the world's largest aerial production company with 40 aircraft, helicopters, planes, and jets. He was filming all the major motion pictures. So Italian Job, Maverick, Jurassic World, all the Apple TV backgrounds. And in the building of that company, Steve's business partner died in a plane crash. And, you know, it was tragic. They were filming the movie American Made with Tom Cruise. And when they were filming the movie, Steve's business partner died in that plane crash.
But that's how Steve get got the idea to start pray dot com was because a former Navy Seal gave him an audio sermon from a pastor to help him during that time of tragedy in his life. And Steve said, why does the digital destination for Christians not exist? We have the digital destination for sports, ESPN. And the very next day, Steve and I are at this coffee shop, and I had built apps, and he had built media. And he told me about pray dot com, and I said, Steve, I'll help you. I'll do it for free. And so Steve and I linked up. We have our other 2 cofounders, Ryan and Mike, and we went out and started pray dot com, in October of 20 16. So that's how I that's how I got to pray.
Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that. It's, it wasn't a straight line from the start to where you are today, but it rarely ever is. And there are a lot of things that happened in your in your life that, obviously contributed to, to founding this based on the idea of a friend who was facing a a a tragedy, a personal tragedy, and a very sad event. But, you know, as is the case, some real good has come from it. That's right.
You mentioned upfront the the growth and popularity of of the platform, and, you know, it seems that there are other some other faith based, you know, platforms out there. You know, there's the movie The Chosen, which is being heavily marketed, and and, you know, there's a a king of kings and animated movies coming out, you know, to be released, I think, in a week or so. You know, what's happening in the culture? Is is faith becoming cool? And then let me stack the question a little bit by asking, do you feel that apps like pray dot com are helping to drive the culture, or has the culture been shifting for other reasons and you've really been in the right place at the right time?
Yeah. I think I I think it's both. There are you know, you can't build platforms like pray dot com or TV shows like The Chosen if there isn't a hunger for people to want to consume that content and want to, use, an app like pray dot com. So I think what's interesting is, you know, we were if you look at, church attendance, right, it's been going down over time, and big media would have would have us thinking that, you know, church attendance is directly correlative to how, you know, highest, how devoted people are to their faith in America.
But it's interesting to see that faith content consumption and app downloads is actually up 52 percent over the last 24 months. And I would say that as a culture, we swung the pendulum outside of faith and kind of going against our original parents' and grandparents' beliefs a little bit. And now the subculture has become orthodoxy, has become going back to church, has become listening to the Bible and reading the Bible and listening to the principles of the Bible and family and all that good stuff. So it's funny to see that the pendulum swung, and now it's swinging back. And the subculture, it has become cool again to be orthodox. Right? Like, I was in a, a conference actually up in San Francisco and with several, you know, large investor firms and different people, and all of them were going to church or becoming orthodox. Like, it's becoming cool again. It's really it's really interesting to see.
Now church attendance is declining. That is something that's happening, but so are attendance to movie theaters and physical locations because now we have everything coming right here. There's more smartphones on planet Earth than toothbrushes. So everything comes to us now. A sandwich, a car. You can order. I I I bought a Tesla, and I did it right on my phone. I didn't even talk to anybody. Who would have thought? Right? When I was building HomeStack, we did mortgages so that you could do your whole mortgage on a phone. Who would have thought 20 years ago, you wouldn't have to sign a wet signature on the largest purchase of your life, and you could do it with your finger on your phone.
So, you know, I think I think we're having that pendulum swing where everything is becoming more digital. And I'm not saying that it is a replacement for community and for going to church. I'm a big believer in that. Huge believer in that. But I think what's interesting is the average church attendance was once a month with, you know, engaging with your faith for about 1 hour a month on average. And now on pray dot com, at least with our data, we can say we've increased that to people checking out the app 60 times per month for an average of 6 to 8 hours of content consumption for faith related topics or the bible or exploring their Christianity. So it's super interesting to see what's happening.
Well, you know, this shift, there's probably 2 ways to look at it depending on your values and how you experience spirituality or whether you even do experience spirituality. If you are a Christian, you might look at this and say, well, it's the hand of God directing this, and we are we are moving in this direction, and and, and that's great. There's another way to look at it, though, and I wonder if you have any thoughts about this, which is that we we went through a major pandemic. You know, there's lots of evidence that mental health issues are coming to the fore, that there's a great deal of depression and anxiety and so forth. And so the question is, are there some things happening in our culture that are pushing people back to faith, spirituality, and to God?
Absolutely. And we don't even know the the major ramifications of what COVID has done to our society, to to people's mental health in the long term. Right? And it's gonna be really interesting to you know, hindsight's always 20 20 looking back. Right? So we'll see what 20 20 really did to us as a culture. So, absolutely, I think culture is driving, and headed towards these things. But I think it's also interesting that when dealing with mental health and mental health related issues, people are turning to faith. I think that's kind of overlooked that faith has a massive component to play in that, and we're seeing that in our research.
So we have some we have an a a PhD scientist research team at prey dot com with our lead researcher being doctor Brie Laird. And we are doing clinical trials and cross sectional studies to show how prayer and interacting with, digital related Christian content is lowering mental health symptoms that people are experiencing. It's lowering anxiety. It's lowering depression. It's lowering hopelessness, some of these things, by engaging with your faith. And, actually, the frequency matters the most. So it's developing that daily healthy habit of prayer, reading your Bible, engaging with your faith that has the largest decrease in those mental health symptoms. And so, yeah, I I absolutely believe that culture and a and a global pandemic has something to do with it.
But I think there is also you know, it was happening before the pandemic. We had since 2005, if you look at some of the CDC data, you know, suicide rates in the United States have been, increasing ever since 2005. Now the pandemic may have poured gasoline on an already burning fire, but we have needed to get back to this, in my belief. We need to get back to our faith when we look at these different scientific studies, clinical trials, things that are happening. And you see it also in Harvard's human flourishing project. So Harvard's human flourishing project on how human beings can flourish the most, they actually left out a religious or faith component from the Human Flourishing Project, and they're finding that when you add in the the, faith and religious component to human flourishing, the outcomes are even more out sized than their original human flourishing project.
So you're seeing this not just, you know, from the preacher who's on the street or inside the church, but you're seeing this from the CDC. You're seeing it from research studies that pray dot com is conducting and other people are conducting on prayer and faith. And then you're also, you know, seeing it in people's actions that they're taking from consuming faith based content and that increase of faith based content consumption over the last 24 months.
That's great. You know, I'm I I guess I'd say I'm not surprised to hear, about the impact, you know, based on the fact that I've seen a number of studies on the relationship of, a hospital or health care systems investment in chaplaincy services on health outcomes, wellness, and and the the the data is pretty compelling there. I'm glad that you're investing in research and data, and it sounds as though that's a that's a commitment you've made and a priority.
Yeah. Absolutely. We're working with several different universities and their research teams, to conduct these clinical trials, cross sectional studies. And I'm not the scientist, but, you know, I know a little bit. I know enough to be dangerous of all the things that we're doing. And we are committed at pray dot com to showing that prayer and science are 1 and the same. Because as a Christian, I believe that we were created in the image of God. We're created by God. We're created in the image of God. So wouldn't it make sense as a Christian that if we prayed and connected with our creator, connected with God, that that would have a scientific outcome on our physical human bodies and our mental health. And so we're seeing that actually take place right now from some of the studies that we're conducting.
Well, you know, I've I've seen over the course of my professional career that for the most part, we compartmentalized our faith lives outside of our professional lives. You know, sometimes they could intertwine, but that was probably more the exception than the than the rule. And since I became a coach and as I've been, you know, working with a number of clients, it's not uncommon to get into meaning making and, you know, concepts of purpose and a person's core values. And the reticence to get into issues of faith seems diminished now compared to 5 years ago. You know, 5 years ago, it was pretty uncommon that someone would wanna get into a conversation about this, but that seems like that's diminishing. The intersection of business and faith, have you had any observations there with even perhaps some employees or employers, being willing to be more direct about it?
Yes. Absolutely. In fact, there's now something called the REDI Index that came out not too long ago. And the REDI Index is gauging companies' diversity, religious diversity, and openness to accepting people's whole person at work based on their religious beliefs. So, yes, I think those walls are coming down of, hey. This is work, and we only talk about work at work, to you can feel comfortable bringing your whole person to work. And we're already seeing employee benefits programs, doing that. There's employee benefits programs to go to the gym or to download the Calm app, and you get a, you know, a Buddhist meditation from the Calm app, or you can download and use the pray dot com app in these employee benefits programs.
So employers are realizing that, you know, it is tough to compartmentalize someone that's a person is a person, and they can bring their whole person to work, right, while following HR guidelines. But they want to invest in their people more than ever before, which is why they're developing out these employee benefits programs that give them access to apps like pray dot com, calm, Buddhist meditation, Headspace Buddhist meditation, some of these different things because they're realizing that if people are using pray dot com, they're they're spending less sick days away with mental health issues. They're coming to work feeling better every day. They have purpose. Like, the Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren is the second best selling book of all time besides the bible. Right? So people wanna feel like they have a purpose and, like, they matter and their purpose matters for what they're doing at work. And employers are are developing out those programs.
They also have, what's called employee resource groups, which is kind of like a club at a company. So you would you would, you know, people think that, you know, employ employers don't wanna have religion at work, but Google has an employee resource group for Christians. Facebook has an employee resource group for Christians, and they meet. And they have a bible study, and they bring speakers in. You know, all of these large corporations are starting to move to these employee resource group models because they know that people wanna bring their whole person to work. So, yeah, that is changing. Those walls are coming down.
Okay. What's interesting, you know, this is the language of return on investment. Applying it to faith is new. You know, there's Yeah. There's something about that that feels unique to me.
Yeah. You know, it it is actually all about margin and mission Mhmm. Profit and purpose. Like, you have to be about both, if you want to build something sustainable today, you know, because we are people. We're all people. And with people come people problems. Right? And we wanna feel like we can bring our whole person to work, and that's you know, our beliefs set a lot of, things morals in our life, our integrity. You know, that comes from our belief systems. And for Christians, those belief systems foundations are in the bible. And so employers are recognizing that, and they're realizing, hey. We should have these groups and these things set aside for people of faith.
Well, given what you do, given the the purpose of the app and the platform and your path to its creation, it's not a stretch to say there's a a a ministry here, but it's a business. And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the interplay or maybe at times potentially the conflict between, you know, the fact that you've got financial expectations, growth expectations, perhaps there are perhaps there's, you know, return expectations with the fact that this is faith and there is a a ministry dimension.
Yeah. That's a great question. And at pray dot com, that is what we preach, you know, every day is margin and mission, profit, and purpose. And as long as you set the foundation of your organization, your company, as we are going to serve the customer, which is what the very best companies in the world do. They're obsessed with the customer. They serve the customer, over serve the customer, and our customer is, you know, Christian people and people who are curious about their faith. And so we've already aligned the objectives perfectly. Right? So, you know, we when we make a business decision, you know, sometimes we may make a business decision that doesn't make sense in the short term, but we're making long term business decisions to focus and be obsessed with that customer and helping that customer. And the customer is those people of faith. So if they're using the app and our business goals are aligned with the customer's goals, then we'll always make the right decision for the customer. And those those things will be aligned instead of juxtaposed.
Is that ever challenging, or have you found that that alignment has been something you've been been able to achieve and maintain?
Yeah. You know, it it it does get called into question, you know, always. Right? And we always need to be looking at and auditing our decision making processes and how we do things and, our internal processes, meeting rhythms, all those good things. So it does get called into question, and it does get tested. But overwhelmingly after those tests, it comes back to, are we aligned and obsessed with our purpose, our mission, and with the customer's purpose and mission? And every time we overserve the customer and do what's right for the customer, then the business part ends up working itself out.
Artificial intelligence. Can we talk a little bit about how you feel that may impact your business, your platform? How is it affecting the culture as it relates to faith? And, you know, does is this impacting ministry?
Yes. So there's a there's a lot of things to talk about with artificial intelligence. And, for us, it's not a secret. We have a we just did a a very large press release with Palantir, and the CEO over there, Alex. We are utilizing AI in every aspect of prey dot com, almost every aspect, minus the the actual content creation. But we are using AI in every facet of the business, and it's helping us be more efficient, you know, being being a better fiduciary of the stewardship of the resources that we have, but it's also creating a better experience for our customers and, for the churches and leaders that utilize our platform.
So, you know, AI, just like any other new technology, can be used for good and can be used for evil. Right? Any new technology you look at, nuclear technology, can be used for good, can be used for evil. Nanotechnology, biochem biotechnology. Right? Everything can be used for good or for evil. It's my belief that if people are not using it for good, evil will overcome. And so we need to utilize a a AI technology for good. And the way that that looks like at prey dot com and how we utilize it is, you know, it helps us, create incredible cinematic audio, incredible animated series that we can create now at a more efficient price point. It helps us customize and personalize content and content series for people and helps change those paths over time.
You know, with with the AI technology, it can serve up if you've ever felt like someone, when you were in a large group, was talking directly to you, that's what AI technology can do through a platform like prey dot com. If you're dealing with a mental health issue, it can recommend content for that issue until it sees results of it being resolved or as it is resolving in your life. So AI can do so many incredible things. Now is it going to be used for evil? 100 percent. There's cults in Silicon Valley of people who worship AI right now. I mean, literally, they go to what they would call a service, and they worship AI.
So can and and that's just that's not even, like, it being utilized for for bad or for evil. Right? It's just people, I would say, confused. But, you know, it it will absolutely be used for deep fakes and all sorts of things, lies and and making the truth more obfuscated. Right? Like, you can do that with AI technology. But if no 1 uses it for good, then it'll only be used for evil. And so we wanna utilize it for good for helping people through those mental and spiritual health crisises, that they have in their lives.
We get reviews, Ray, all the time. Mom is in the hospital at 3 AM with their 16 year old child who just got in a car accident. And they're looking to connect with their faith in that moment because they have no 1 to call at 3 in the morning. Police officer I'm sorry. Go ahead. Police officer who got shared pray dot com in the perfect moment when he was in his garage going to commit suicide. And someone shared him the prey dot com app right then when he was gonna take his service pistol and end everything. Like, AI can be used for so many incredible things, and we need to continue to use it for those amazing and good things.
There's much much to consider there, you know, going back to something that you mentioned earlier about community. I think we've all seen that, as you stated with AI, there's there's good and there's challenging. And I think with all technology, you know, it's not meant to replace human interaction. It's not meant to replace community, but it does form a different form of community, 1 that's more accessible and, you know, is open 24 hours a day as you just suggested in that in that vignette. Is there anything else that worries you about your business, about the future, whether it's AI or anything else? Like, what's what's the challenge that's, you know, the monster under the bed here?
Yeah. With with with everything that's happening right now, we live in the most connected world, but we have the least amount of best friends. Right. And and it's definitely correlative as technology is continuing to grow and become more part of our lives that we need that human to human connection more than ever before. And I think that's what worries me is we'll figure out the technology and how to make it perfect for people. We'll figure out the programs and and the ways to help with mental and spiritual health, but nothing can replace the human connection like you said. And so that's what worries me. We are in the most connected world, but we can't lose our humanity at the same time.
Yes. That's a that's probably a powerful, point to to conclude on, Matthew. If folks are interested in trying the app, if you know, what Yeah. What's the what's the, the entree point for prey dot com? And, you know, what does that look like? And is there a way that folks can, can give it a try for a period of time?
Absolutely. So, the app has a free and paid section, and I wasn't planning on doing this on this podcast. But just for listening and tuning in and you may you you may not be religious at all, but just in case you wanna check it out, I'm gonna give you the entire app for free just for listening, to the podcast. So if you go to pray dot com forward slash matt, m a t t, you will get the entire app for a year for free. You only have to enter in your email address, and that's just to keep your login safe and secure so that, you know, you can log in and and consume the content that you wanna consume that, you might want to, check out. So, again, if you just go to pray dot com forward slash matt, m a t t, you can get the entire app for free. Now you can go to your App Store, Apple, Apple App Store, Google Play Store, and download the app. But if you go to that URL first, you'll get the whole app for free just for listening to the podcast and listening to my story. So thank you so much.
Well, thank you. That's very generous, and, I would say it's worth checking out. I think there's, there's probably a lot on there that would be beneficial. I've certainly been playing around with it, and I'm quite impressed. So so thank you so much. Thanks for being on my podcast, Matthew, and I wish you the very best and and your team there. You're you're doing something really important, and you're having a great impact in our culture and our world. So thank you for that.
Thank you, Ray, so much for having me on the podcast. It's been an honor and a blessing and just really appreciate it and grateful for you.
Thanks for listening. Leaving a positive review and letting others know about this podcast will help a great deal. My mission is to help empower organizations that matter by supporting those who lead them. I offer coaching, mentoring, and consulting services. You can learn more about me at ray spidoni dot com.
Welcome to Leading Organizations That Matter, A podcast about leadership and how we find meaning, purpose, and impact in our work. I'm your host, Ray Spadoni, and today's topic is, is faith in fashion? An interview with pray dot com's cofounder, Matthew Potter. This is perhaps something a bit different for this podcast, a discussion about faith. Though, what is not so different is that I have covered topics associated with the importance of being integrated whole and true. Leadership, meaning, purpose, and impact are what we do talk about here. And oftentimes, that gets into issues of deeply held personal values. I haven't at this point directly considered the topic of faith, but frankly, that feels like a bit of a hollow distinction and unnecessary compartmentalization. So today, we pierce the wall and get into it with 1 of the founders of pray dot com, which is a major player in the growing faith based realm of apps, media, and it seems cultural acceptability. Matthew's story is fascinating, so I'll let him tell it. But just know that after having been a successful and wildly prolific app developer, he had a chance encounter with a friend, and that changed the course of his life. Let's get into it.
Welcome to the podcast, Matthew. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me, Ray. It's an honor and a blessing to be here. Awesome. Well, in the prerecorded intro for this episode, as I tend to do on all these episodes, I, I I talk a little bit about the the person I'm about to interview. But in this 1, I describe to listeners that faith related topics are not typically the ones I cover here on this podcast. And so today marks a bit of a departure point. So I'm delighted that you're here to help ease us through the transition, and I think that your personal story and what you've done at prey dot com make you just the right person to do so. So thank you. Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to, broach the topic. And, also, you know, we can talk about prayer and science, which are 2 things that, you know, people would think are juxtaposed against each other, but, they actually go together. And, we can explain that as well. Fantastic. Fantastic.
So I did mention, in the in the prerecorded part that you are 1 of the cofounders of the app. And I didn't say much more about that, because I think you should do that. But first, I think it would be very helpful just to set the context. If you could tell tell people about prey dot com, you know, what it is, a little bit about the history, what you're aiming to do with the platform, maybe a little bit about its reach and its impact?
Yeah. So not a problem at all. Pray dot com is the number 1 app for daily prayer and faith based content. We started back in 2016, October of 2016, and now we're here in 20 25. Pray dot com is the largest growing Christian, audience in the nation, so in the United States. And we have over 19000000 downloads of the pray dot com app, a hundred and 68000000 shares of content outside the app on other platforms like iMessage or email. And then we've just crossed 3000000000 listening minutes of content, which I'm told is over 1700 years of content consumption. Pretty crazy. And then, we launched some podcasts, last year. So in the last 18 months, we've had about 200000000 downloads of gray dot com's podcasts.
Congratulations. That's quite impressive. Thank you very much. Yeah. It's, it's exciting to to see what God's done assembling, you know, an Avengers team of people from companies, some of the greatest companies in Silicon Valley, to be able to build this platform, for, Christian people or people who are curious about the Bible, curious about their faith, or where they're going, when they die and all the big meaty topics. Right? So That's great.
You you know, I'm sure we'll come back to to pray dot com, to to the app. But let's talk a little bit about you. I'm I'm curious if you don't mind sharing your journey, especially as it comes to bringing you to this point, you know, the founding of Yeah. The app and, you know, what what was it that brought you to to that?
So for me, it all started with a 15 year old girl who was walking down the street. She was actually going to an abortion clinic. She was 15, and she was pregnant. She's about 8 months pregnant going to this, abortion clinic. And on her way there, she was feeling a little guilty, and she saw a church. And she stopped in at the church to ask the pastor for some advice on the biggest decision she was making in her life up to that point. And, the pastor was a new pastor, so he's a little nervous, thinking this is a life or death, you know, situation that he's in. So, he called a buddy of his in Los Angeles who planted a 20 person church, in LA and said, hey. What should I tell this 15 year old girl who's pregnant, who just walked in, my door? I've never met her before. I don't know her parents. You're way better at this than me. What do I tell her? And the pastor with the 20 person church in Los Angeles said, you know what? It is providential that you called me today. There's a a couple that just joined my church who's been trying to have children for 10 years, and they've been struggling and haven't been able to have children. Why don't you ask that girl if she'd be willing to give that baby up for adoption to this wonderful family that just joined my congregation? And, the girl said yes. And I was the baby the girl brought into the church, and I got adopted because of these 2 pastors that were friends.
So, yeah, pretty remarkable what, God did in my life. And then, my dad, became the head elder of this 20 person church, helping the pastor grow it to 1 of the largest churches in Los Angeles, today. It's a nondenominational, just bible preaching church. No frills, no thrills, just, you know, the word. And, yeah. So I grew up in church with my pastor being like a second dad to me and, went to high school, at a local high school here in Southern California. And strangely, I got the very unique opportunity to go up to Pixar, a new startup that was making animated movies. And while I was there, I got to, in a chance meeting, I got to meet Steve Jobs. And I didn't know this when I was there, but Steve Jobs is also adopted, and he super inspired me to get into technology. You know, being adopted, my my adopted family, everyone was great at sports. I was like a baby giraffe on the football field or the baseball field, and I was better with computers. So when Steve Jobs is telling you you should get into computers, I really looked into it, and it was super fun.
And so my senior year of college, which I don't recommend, Steve Jobs launched the App Store, and I dropped that at school. And I knew that's what I wanted to do. I just dove in with both feet. So I started a company called HomeStack. We build technology for real estate companies, specifically apps. And so I built HomeStack over a decade with my cofounder, Will, who's an incredible guy. Will is now the CEO of HomeStack. And so while at HomeStack, we built over 8000 apps in the App Store for some of the major real estate companies in the United States, including Coldwell Banker, Century 21, Sotheby's, many, many more, Pinnacle Estate Properties, and a few others. And so, it was super fun. We were doing great things. People were happy. We were helping people find their dream home.
But for some reason, you know, I had reached my goals, and I was coming to work every day just feeling empty inside, like I had lost my purpose. I reached this weird point in my life where I hit the goals that I wanted to to hit. We had done very well, and I just wanted to help him get back. So I called my pastor. I asked him how I could help him get back. And and, you know, he said, well, why don't you be a campus pastor? And I knew that wasn't right for me. You know, I'm an introverted tech entrepreneur who didn't go to seminary. And so I just said, you know, I'll pray about it.
And the next day, I ran into my good buddy, Steve Gutina, at a coffee shop. And Steve went to USC, played football, won a Rose Bowl under Pete Carroll, started a media company where he built out the YouTube channels for Red Bull, Marriott Hotels, Herbalife, several others. He sold that company and became the 29 year old CEO of the world's largest aerial production company with 40 aircraft, helicopters, planes, and jets. He was filming all the major motion pictures. So Italian Job, Maverick, Jurassic World, all the Apple TV backgrounds. And in the building of that company, Steve's business partner died in a plane crash. And, you know, it was tragic. They were filming the movie American Made with Tom Cruise. And when they were filming the movie, Steve's business partner died in that plane crash.
But that's how Steve get got the idea to start pray dot com was because a former Navy Seal gave him an audio sermon from a pastor to help him during that time of tragedy in his life. And Steve said, why does the digital destination for Christians not exist? We have the digital destination for sports, ESPN. And the very next day, Steve and I are at this coffee shop, and I had built apps, and he had built media. And he told me about pray dot com, and I said, Steve, I'll help you. I'll do it for free. And so Steve and I linked up. We have our other 2 cofounders, Ryan and Mike, and we went out and started pray dot com, in October of 20 16. So that's how I that's how I got to pray.
Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that. It's, it wasn't a straight line from the start to where you are today, but it rarely ever is. And there are a lot of things that happened in your in your life that, obviously contributed to, to founding this based on the idea of a friend who was facing a a a tragedy, a personal tragedy, and a very sad event. But, you know, as is the case, some real good has come from it. That's right.
You mentioned upfront the the growth and popularity of of the platform, and, you know, it seems that there are other some other faith based, you know, platforms out there. You know, there's the movie The Chosen, which is being heavily marketed, and and, you know, there's a a king of kings and animated movies coming out, you know, to be released, I think, in a week or so. You know, what's happening in the culture? Is is faith becoming cool? And then let me stack the question a little bit by asking, do you feel that apps like pray dot com are helping to drive the culture, or has the culture been shifting for other reasons and you've really been in the right place at the right time?
Yeah. I think I I think it's both. There are you know, you can't build platforms like pray dot com or TV shows like The Chosen if there isn't a hunger for people to want to consume that content and want to, use, an app like pray dot com. So I think what's interesting is, you know, we were if you look at, church attendance, right, it's been going down over time, and big media would have would have us thinking that, you know, church attendance is directly correlative to how, you know, highest, how devoted people are to their faith in America.
But it's interesting to see that faith content consumption and app downloads is actually up 52 percent over the last 24 months. And I would say that as a culture, we swung the pendulum outside of faith and kind of going against our original parents' and grandparents' beliefs a little bit. And now the subculture has become orthodoxy, has become going back to church, has become listening to the Bible and reading the Bible and listening to the principles of the Bible and family and all that good stuff. So it's funny to see that the pendulum swung, and now it's swinging back. And the subculture, it has become cool again to be orthodox. Right? Like, I was in a, a conference actually up in San Francisco and with several, you know, large investor firms and different people, and all of them were going to church or becoming orthodox. Like, it's becoming cool again. It's really it's really interesting to see.
Now church attendance is declining. That is something that's happening, but so are attendance to movie theaters and physical locations because now we have everything coming right here. There's more smartphones on planet Earth than toothbrushes. So everything comes to us now. A sandwich, a car. You can order. I I I bought a Tesla, and I did it right on my phone. I didn't even talk to anybody. Who would have thought? Right? When I was building HomeStack, we did mortgages so that you could do your whole mortgage on a phone. Who would have thought 20 years ago, you wouldn't have to sign a wet signature on the largest purchase of your life, and you could do it with your finger on your phone.
So, you know, I think I think we're having that pendulum swing where everything is becoming more digital. And I'm not saying that it is a replacement for community and for going to church. I'm a big believer in that. Huge believer in that. But I think what's interesting is the average church attendance was once a month with, you know, engaging with your faith for about 1 hour a month on average. And now on pray dot com, at least with our data, we can say we've increased that to people checking out the app 60 times per month for an average of 6 to 8 hours of content consumption for faith related topics or the bible or exploring their Christianity. So it's super interesting to see what's happening.
Well, you know, this shift, there's probably 2 ways to look at it depending on your values and how you experience spirituality or whether you even do experience spirituality. If you are a Christian, you might look at this and say, well, it's the hand of God directing this, and we are we are moving in this direction, and and, and that's great. There's another way to look at it, though, and I wonder if you have any thoughts about this, which is that we we went through a major pandemic. You know, there's lots of evidence that mental health issues are coming to the fore, that there's a great deal of depression and anxiety and so forth. And so the question is, are there some things happening in our culture that are pushing people back to faith, spirituality, and to God?
Absolutely. And we don't even know the the major ramifications of what COVID has done to our society, to to people's mental health in the long term. Right? And it's gonna be really interesting to you know, hindsight's always 20 20 looking back. Right? So we'll see what 20 20 really did to us as a culture. So, absolutely, I think culture is driving, and headed towards these things. But I think it's also interesting that when dealing with mental health and mental health related issues, people are turning to faith. I think that's kind of overlooked that faith has a massive component to play in that, and we're seeing that in our research.
So we have some we have an a a PhD scientist research team at prey dot com with our lead researcher being doctor Brie Laird. And we are doing clinical trials and cross sectional studies to show how prayer and interacting with, digital related Christian content is lowering mental health symptoms that people are experiencing. It's lowering anxiety. It's lowering depression. It's lowering hopelessness, some of these things, by engaging with your faith. And, actually, the frequency matters the most. So it's developing that daily healthy habit of prayer, reading your Bible, engaging with your faith that has the largest decrease in those mental health symptoms. And so, yeah, I I absolutely believe that culture and a and a global pandemic has something to do with it.
But I think there is also you know, it was happening before the pandemic. We had since 2005, if you look at some of the CDC data, you know, suicide rates in the United States have been, increasing ever since 2005. Now the pandemic may have poured gasoline on an already burning fire, but we have needed to get back to this, in my belief. We need to get back to our faith when we look at these different scientific studies, clinical trials, things that are happening. And you see it also in Harvard's human flourishing project. So Harvard's human flourishing project on how human beings can flourish the most, they actually left out a religious or faith component from the Human Flourishing Project, and they're finding that when you add in the the, faith and religious component to human flourishing, the outcomes are even more out sized than their original human flourishing project.
So you're seeing this not just, you know, from the preacher who's on the street or inside the church, but you're seeing this from the CDC. You're seeing it from research studies that pray dot com is conducting and other people are conducting on prayer and faith. And then you're also, you know, seeing it in people's actions that they're taking from consuming faith based content and that increase of faith based content consumption over the last 24 months.
That's great. You know, I'm I I guess I'd say I'm not surprised to hear, about the impact, you know, based on the fact that I've seen a number of studies on the relationship of, a hospital or health care systems investment in chaplaincy services on health outcomes, wellness, and and the the the data is pretty compelling there. I'm glad that you're investing in research and data, and it sounds as though that's a that's a commitment you've made and a priority.
Yeah. Absolutely. We're working with several different universities and their research teams, to conduct these clinical trials, cross sectional studies. And I'm not the scientist, but, you know, I know a little bit. I know enough to be dangerous of all the things that we're doing. And we are committed at pray dot com to showing that prayer and science are 1 and the same. Because as a Christian, I believe that we were created in the image of God. We're created by God. We're created in the image of God. So wouldn't it make sense as a Christian that if we prayed and connected with our creator, connected with God, that that would have a scientific outcome on our physical human bodies and our mental health. And so we're seeing that actually take place right now from some of the studies that we're conducting.
Well, you know, I've I've seen over the course of my professional career that for the most part, we compartmentalized our faith lives outside of our professional lives. You know, sometimes they could intertwine, but that was probably more the exception than the than the rule. And since I became a coach and as I've been, you know, working with a number of clients, it's not uncommon to get into meaning making and, you know, concepts of purpose and a person's core values. And the reticence to get into issues of faith seems diminished now compared to 5 years ago. You know, 5 years ago, it was pretty uncommon that someone would wanna get into a conversation about this, but that seems like that's diminishing. The intersection of business and faith, have you had any observations there with even perhaps some employees or employers, being willing to be more direct about it?
Yes. Absolutely. In fact, there's now something called the REDI Index that came out not too long ago. And the REDI Index is gauging companies' diversity, religious diversity, and openness to accepting people's whole person at work based on their religious beliefs. So, yes, I think those walls are coming down of, hey. This is work, and we only talk about work at work, to you can feel comfortable bringing your whole person to work. And we're already seeing employee benefits programs, doing that. There's employee benefits programs to go to the gym or to download the Calm app, and you get a, you know, a Buddhist meditation from the Calm app, or you can download and use the pray dot com app in these employee benefits programs.
So employers are realizing that, you know, it is tough to compartmentalize someone that's a person is a person, and they can bring their whole person to work, right, while following HR guidelines. But they want to invest in their people more than ever before, which is why they're developing out these employee benefits programs that give them access to apps like pray dot com, calm, Buddhist meditation, Headspace Buddhist meditation, some of these different things because they're realizing that if people are using pray dot com, they're they're spending less sick days away with mental health issues. They're coming to work feeling better every day. They have purpose. Like, the Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren is the second best selling book of all time besides the bible. Right? So people wanna feel like they have a purpose and, like, they matter and their purpose matters for what they're doing at work. And employers are are developing out those programs.
They also have, what's called employee resource groups, which is kind of like a club at a company. So you would you would, you know, people think that, you know, employ employers don't wanna have religion at work, but Google has an employee resource group for Christians. Facebook has an employee resource group for Christians, and they meet. And they have a bible study, and they bring speakers in. You know, all of these large corporations are starting to move to these employee resource group models because they know that people wanna bring their whole person to work. So, yeah, that is changing. Those walls are coming down.
Okay. What's interesting, you know, this is the language of return on investment. Applying it to faith is new. You know, there's Yeah. There's something about that that feels unique to me.
Yeah. You know, it it is actually all about margin and mission Mhmm. Profit and purpose. Like, you have to be about both, if you want to build something sustainable today, you know, because we are people. We're all people. And with people come people problems. Right? And we wanna feel like we can bring our whole person to work, and that's you know, our beliefs set a lot of, things morals in our life, our integrity. You know, that comes from our belief systems. And for Christians, those belief systems foundations are in the bible. And so employers are recognizing that, and they're realizing, hey. We should have these groups and these things set aside for people of faith.
Well, given what you do, given the the purpose of the app and the platform and your path to its creation, it's not a stretch to say there's a a a ministry here, but it's a business. And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the interplay or maybe at times potentially the conflict between, you know, the fact that you've got financial expectations, growth expectations, perhaps there are perhaps there's, you know, return expectations with the fact that this is faith and there is a a ministry dimension.
Yeah. That's a great question. And at pray dot com, that is what we preach, you know, every day is margin and mission, profit, and purpose. And as long as you set the foundation of your organization, your company, as we are going to serve the customer, which is what the very best companies in the world do. They're obsessed with the customer. They serve the customer, over serve the customer, and our customer is, you know, Christian people and people who are curious about their faith. And so we've already aligned the objectives perfectly. Right? So, you know, we when we make a business decision, you know, sometimes we may make a business decision that doesn't make sense in the short term, but we're making long term business decisions to focus and be obsessed with that customer and helping that customer. And the customer is those people of faith. So if they're using the app and our business goals are aligned with the customer's goals, then we'll always make the right decision for the customer. And those those things will be aligned instead of juxtaposed.
Is that ever challenging, or have you found that that alignment has been something you've been been able to achieve and maintain?
Yeah. You know, it it it does get called into question, you know, always. Right? And we always need to be looking at and auditing our decision making processes and how we do things and, our internal processes, meeting rhythms, all those good things. So it does get called into question, and it does get tested. But overwhelmingly after those tests, it comes back to, are we aligned and obsessed with our purpose, our mission, and with the customer's purpose and mission? And every time we overserve the customer and do what's right for the customer, then the business part ends up working itself out.
Artificial intelligence. Can we talk a little bit about how you feel that may impact your business, your platform? How is it affecting the culture as it relates to faith? And, you know, does is this impacting ministry?
Yes. So there's a there's a lot of things to talk about with artificial intelligence. And, for us, it's not a secret. We have a we just did a a very large press release with Palantir, and the CEO over there, Alex. We are utilizing AI in every aspect of prey dot com, almost every aspect, minus the the actual content creation. But we are using AI in every facet of the business, and it's helping us be more efficient, you know, being being a better fiduciary of the stewardship of the resources that we have, but it's also creating a better experience for our customers and, for the churches and leaders that utilize our platform.
So, you know, AI, just like any other new technology, can be used for good and can be used for evil. Right? Any new technology you look at, nuclear technology, can be used for good, can be used for evil. Nanotechnology, biochem biotechnology. Right? Everything can be used for good or for evil. It's my belief that if people are not using it for good, evil will overcome. And so we need to utilize a a AI technology for good. And the way that that looks like at prey dot com and how we utilize it is, you know, it helps us, create incredible cinematic audio, incredible animated series that we can create now at a more efficient price point. It helps us customize and personalize content and content series for people and helps change those paths over time.
You know, with with the AI technology, it can serve up if you've ever felt like someone, when you were in a large group, was talking directly to you, that's what AI technology can do through a platform like prey dot com. If you're dealing with a mental health issue, it can recommend content for that issue until it sees results of it being resolved or as it is resolving in your life. So AI can do so many incredible things. Now is it going to be used for evil? 100 percent. There's cults in Silicon Valley of people who worship AI right now. I mean, literally, they go to what they would call a service, and they worship AI.
So can and and that's just that's not even, like, it being utilized for for bad or for evil. Right? It's just people, I would say, confused. But, you know, it it will absolutely be used for deep fakes and all sorts of things, lies and and making the truth more obfuscated. Right? Like, you can do that with AI technology. But if no 1 uses it for good, then it'll only be used for evil. And so we wanna utilize it for good for helping people through those mental and spiritual health crisises, that they have in their lives.
We get reviews, Ray, all the time. Mom is in the hospital at 3 AM with their 16 year old child who just got in a car accident. And they're looking to connect with their faith in that moment because they have no 1 to call at 3 in the morning. Police officer I'm sorry. Go ahead. Police officer who got shared pray dot com in the perfect moment when he was in his garage going to commit suicide. And someone shared him the prey dot com app right then when he was gonna take his service pistol and end everything. Like, AI can be used for so many incredible things, and we need to continue to use it for those amazing and good things.
There's much much to consider there, you know, going back to something that you mentioned earlier about community. I think we've all seen that, as you stated with AI, there's there's good and there's challenging. And I think with all technology, you know, it's not meant to replace human interaction. It's not meant to replace community, but it does form a different form of community, 1 that's more accessible and, you know, is open 24 hours a day as you just suggested in that in that vignette. Is there anything else that worries you about your business, about the future, whether it's AI or anything else? Like, what's what's the challenge that's, you know, the monster under the bed here?
Yeah. With with with everything that's happening right now, we live in the most connected world, but we have the least amount of best friends. Right. And and it's definitely correlative as technology is continuing to grow and become more part of our lives that we need that human to human connection more than ever before. And I think that's what worries me is we'll figure out the technology and how to make it perfect for people. We'll figure out the programs and and the ways to help with mental and spiritual health, but nothing can replace the human connection like you said. And so that's what worries me. We are in the most connected world, but we can't lose our humanity at the same time.
Yes. That's a that's probably a powerful, point to to conclude on, Matthew. If folks are interested in trying the app, if you know, what Yeah. What's the what's the, the entree point for prey dot com? And, you know, what does that look like? And is there a way that folks can, can give it a try for a period of time?
Absolutely. So, the app has a free and paid section, and I wasn't planning on doing this on this podcast. But just for listening and tuning in and you may you you may not be religious at all, but just in case you wanna check it out, I'm gonna give you the entire app for free just for listening, to the podcast. So if you go to pray dot com forward slash matt, m a t t, you will get the entire app for a year for free. You only have to enter in your email address, and that's just to keep your login safe and secure so that, you know, you can log in and and consume the content that you wanna consume that, you might want to, check out. So, again, if you just go to pray dot com forward slash matt, m a t t, you can get the entire app for free. Now you can go to your App Store, Apple, Apple App Store, Google Play Store, and download the app. But if you go to that URL first, you'll get the whole app for free just for listening to the podcast and listening to my story. So thank you so much.
Well, thank you. That's very generous, and, I would say it's worth checking out. I think there's, there's probably a lot on there that would be beneficial. I've certainly been playing around with it, and I'm quite impressed. So so thank you so much. Thanks for being on my podcast, Matthew, and I wish you the very best and and your team there. You're you're doing something really important, and you're having a great impact in our culture and our world. So thank you for that.
Thank you, Ray, so much for having me on the podcast. It's been an honor and a blessing and just really appreciate it and grateful for you.
Thanks for listening. Leaving a positive review and letting others know about this podcast will help a great deal. My mission is to help empower organizations that matter by supporting those who lead them. I offer coaching, mentoring, and consulting services. You can learn more about me at ray spidoni dot com.
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